STATE OF WISCONSIN CIRCUIT
HONORABLE MARY K. WAGNER CIRCUIT
January 5, 2004
Petitioner, Bernard Tocholke, appeared in person.
Respondent, Shereen Tocholke, appeared in person and by Attorney Thomas
I have edited out the jibber jabber to not
waste your time reading it. If you want a complete transcript you can
ask the courts for a complete copy of your own.
between us we're going through a hundred dollars a week.
THE COURT: And that's a modest amount of money.
MR. TOCHOLKE: We're struggling. And then I'm paying
what I can. And gas money and expenses, other utilities. There is--
THE COURT: Get another job.
MR. TOCHOLKE: But there's no way I can come up from
the 18,000 I have already to come up to the amount, that top, the forty,
THE COURT: Well, then so what do you want to do,
go to jail or not? Do you want your kids to move back here or what do
you want to do? I'm done talking about it. I mean, here's your obligation.
Meet it or go to jail.
MR. TOCHOLKE: Okay. The other thing--
THE COURT: You want to try another shot at trying
to find a way to meet the obligation, so be it, but I'm not going to
sit and talk about it.
MR. TOCHOLKE: So then 192 will never be adjusted?
THE COURT: It's not going to be adjusted now.
MR. TOCHOLKE: Ever? THE COURT: I didn't say ever.
I said it's not going to be adjusted now. You are in contempt of the
orders that existed, so you have the right to go to jail for six months
if you wish. I'm saying I'd rather have you working paying something
for your kids, but you're not making the effort I think you need to make,
Mr. Tocholke. You're not making it at all.
MR. TOCHOLKE: Okay. Can I have one--one thing at least going for
me? I have my children from Friday noon until Saturday night one time
a month. That's it. I'm working Monday through Friday now as a regular
job. I cannot take off Fridays.
THE COURT: You want to change from Saturday
MR. TOCHOLKE: I want Saturday and Sunday.
THE COURT: Well,
it'd have to be after church on Sunday because you disagree with
their church process. So, it'd have to be Saturday and then Sunday after
they're done with their obligations at their church.
MR. TOCHOLKE: No. I have the children--
THE COURT: Right. But you'd have-- But you have them down here.
MR. ANDERSON: Well, he's-- On many occasions he'd get them on Friday
and trek them all the way up to Minnesota and bring them back down on
THE COURT: That's lot of gas money.
Which was not really--
MR. TOCHOLKE: Or be in a motel. But I was trying
to bring-- Okay. In our marital agreement-- In our marital agreement
it stated that she has them the second weekend of the month and I have
the fourth weekend of the month and during that time the children were
supposed to be together. That's what the marital agreement said. I brought
them down here for weekend placement and the way to provide that all
children shall be in the same household each weekend. So when the seven
are supposed to be together, I brought them down here three times. I
drove up there--
THE COURT: The two boys you mean.
MR. TOCHOLKE: The two boys. I brought them down
here three times. When they came down here they stepped into the house,
the other five children are nowhere around. One time I know they were
in Ohio. They were down in Ohio and the boys were there by themselves.
And they says where's the children? 'They're not here. There were two
other times too. There were three times.
THE COURT: Well, that isn't according to the agreement unless Mr.--
MR. TOCHOLKE: So she's in contempt of that.
And so the boys after the third time said forget it, we're not coming
down here anymore. If she wants to see us she can come to see us any
time she wants to, but we're not taking that seven hour, seven hour back
two way trip to be able to--you know, to be deprived of seeing their
other five children. They'd love to see the other five children.
THE COURT: Mr. Anderson, did Mrs. Tocholke--
MR. ANDERSON: Oh, yeah, I'm sure that's probably
true in other respects because there's a whole problem that used to accompany
the two boys when they came down here right away. You know, do you really
want to hear all that, really?
THE COURT: Not necessarily.
MR. TOCHOLKE: I will be owing, I know that, because
there's no way I can complete the obligations total, but I will get another
job weekends. That's all that's left right now, Saturday, Sunday. work
seven days a week.
THE COURT: Right. You know, people, when they have
a big family, they usually do work seven days a week.
MR. TOCHOLKE: I'll see what I can do, but I know I won't be able to
meet the whole obligation.
MR. TOCHOLKE: I was about a month or so out of work
looking for work.
THE COURT: I don't know why you sold your tree equipment
except out of spite, but that's your choice. You get to make choices.
You made that choice, but that doesn't mean I can say, well, you're working
at your highest and best potential, because you're not. We know that
you made more when you were doing wood.
MR. TOCHOLKE: About 25,000 a year. THE COURT: And
are you making 25,000?
MR. TOCHOLKE: I'm making about 19.
THE COURT: So you're not making 25.
MR. TOCHOLKE: I'd have to go back in the woods again, though, try cutting
to be able to do it. to he able to make the 25. Do I have the--
THE COURT: Get a second job. MR. TOCHOLKE: Can I go back into tree cutting
THE COURT: How could you? You haven't got any of your equipment.
MR. TOCHOLKE: No, logging. Logging. Chain saw. Let somebody else have--
THE COURT: Where are your boys going to go?
MR. TOCHOLKE: Huh? I am
in logging country.
THE COURT: Where's your boys?
MR. TOCHOLKE: The
boys are at home.
THE COURT: And where are they going to be?
TOCHOLKE: No. The same. Same situation. I'm in Hinckley, Minnesota. There's
logging all around.
THE COURT: That's what I would have thought, but you sold your equipment.
MR. TOCHOLKE: Okay. The tree cutting and logging
are two different things. Logging you go in the woods, cut down trees,
you haul it to the mill. It goes for production lumber of some sort.
THE COURT: Right.
MR. TOCHOLKE: Tree cutting around here is if you had a tree in the back
yard, you call me, I come--
THE COURT: I understand.
MR. TOCHOLKE: --and take
the tree down but it's not a lumber quality.
THE COURT: Where do you
have your logging equipment?
MR. TOCHOLKE: I don't have any logging equipment.
I would be working for somebody else.
THE COURT: d you have that chance?
MR. TOCHOLKE: I have that chance.
THE COURT: Why don't you take it?
MR. TOCHOLKE: I had it, but one of my attorneys
says no because then you're still going to be considered that you're
making 50,000 gross receipts.
THE COURT: You listen to your attorneys an awful
lot, don't you?
MR. TOCHOLKE: Yes, I do.
THE COURT: And your attorney said don't take that job because it's bad?
I'd like to know that one.
MR. TOCHOLKE: Because I would be framed for 60,000.
THE COURT: Framed? MR. TOCHOLKE: I'm sorry. What would be the proper
word to use? I'm sorry.
THE COURT: You'd be--
MR. TOCHOLKE: Id be set-- I'd be put in a position that I'm making $60,000
THE COURT: You're in it. You're in it now. You're still in it. You're
going to stay in it until something else changes. Right now you're just
telling me you've chosen not to go into logging because that would make
you keep your same obligation. That's shirking. That's a clear admission
MR. TOCHOLKE: I want to make a distinction between the going into logging.
I'm talking about 60,000 versus 25,000. I can go into logging and make
25,000. I'm making 19,000 now.
THE COURT: Go into whatever you want. Pay $197 a
week to Mrs. Tocholke. Do whatever you choose. It's America. You have
a right to make your choices. But you have the right--you have the obligation
to pay 197 a week, so get paying it.
MR. TOCHOLKE: And part of the hack stuff is there when it used to be
430 a week.
THE COURT: It's there. Make the current ones. Start making the 197 a
week. That's how you free yourself from contempt.
MR. TOCHOLKE: Okay. If I started-- If I started making real close to
that type of payment what happens to all the back stuff?
THE COURT: It stays there until you're done paying but you don't go
THE COURT: I assume there's an--as the children reach the ages of 18
it reduces. It may reduce it.
MR. ANDERSON: I don't think there's a set dollar amount. That, of course,
would constitute a substantial change of circumstances. The problem for
Mr. Tocholke is that we'd likely increase his support because he has
the two oldest children.
MR. TOCHOLKE: Okay. What about January and February
now? Now, I can't take Fridays off to come and see my children. Can I
have them for Saturday Sunday?
MR. ANDERSON: The agreement-- And the only objection we have to that
is, you know, if he comes down on Saturday its fine, but he should bring
them back Saturday night. That was part of the agreement. It was set
that way to so that the children--
THE COURT: Could go to church.
MR. ANDERSON: --would be able to continue the church services and the
like all day on Sunday.
If he wants to come down Saturday morning, spend
all day with them down here, it would seem a lot more beneficial than
driving the kids all the way back up to Hinckley, Minnesota. Come down
here, spend the day on Saturday, bring them back. I think it's eight
o'clock at night, if my recollection serves me.
MR. TOHOLKE: So one day a month.
MR. ANDERSON: That's the choice you made when you
moved up to Minnesota. You come back down here I'm sure there would be
more time. THE COURT: There'd be a lot more time. MR. TOCHOLKE: Okay.
What about the other two boys with her now? THE COURT: Well, they haven't
filed a motion to make me have them show up yet.
MR. TOCHOLKE: Well, it's been brought up here in the court. What can
I do about it?
MR. ANDERSON: We'd love to have the boys come down
here, but as I indicated and discussed with Mrs. Tocholke unless there's
some attitude change it's going to create more havoc for her and the
other five kids at this point. And, no, we haven't brought an additional
motion related to that. I'm pointing it out that whether or not we said
we wanted the kids down here you weren't doing it anyhow, Mr. Tocholke.
MR. TOCHOLKE: I brought them down three times.
MR. ANDERSON: Three times. Okay. MR. TOCHOLKE: And all three times--
I mean, I'm talking three times I brought them down here and they were
deprived of seeing the other five children.
THE COURT: They had the opportunity to see their mother, which apparently
they didn't enjoy. Am I right?
MR. TOHOLKE: The pastor's wife was there harassing them. The pastor's
wife is the one that beat them.
THE COURT: Mr. Tocholke, they didn't--they didn't want to come.
MR. TOCHOLKE: They came down here hut they didn't see the other five
THE COURT: And they don't want to come now.
MR. TOCHOLKE: They want to see the other children.
THE COURT: Well, then they can come with you.
MR. TOCHOLKE: But they've been deprived five times.
THE COURT: No. They can come with you when you have
MR. TOCHOLKE: Yes, okay. What do I do about the second weekend of the
month that she's supposed to have them? What do I do about that?
THE COURT: If they don't come? Well, until they bring a motion for me
to find you in contempt for not bringing your boys down to see her I
don't have any opinion. It's pretty hard to make 16 and 17?
MR. TOCHOLKE: Yeah.
THE COURT: --year old boys, especially raised in the surroundings that
you've raised them. They pretty much think they can make their own choices,
MR. TOCHOLKE: I went to the juvenile delinquent or juvenile crisis thing
like that and they told me-- I says am I in contempt? And they says I
cannot physically grab them, put them in the vehicle, bring them here,
THE COURT: Nobody's asking you to do it.
MR. TOCHOLKE: No. But I cannot legally, according to their juvenile
crisis law, I cannot do that, because then they would step in. If I physically
forced it I'd be in the wrong so I cannot do that.
THE COURT: Nobody's fighting with you about that.
MR. TOCHOLKE: Am i still in contempt of court if
I bring them?
THE COURT: There's no motion. can rule on a motion
that's not here.
MR. TOCHOLKE: Okay.
THE COURT: If they bring a motion saying you have
committedcontempt because you've interfered with her visits they have
to prove up how you interfered.
MR. TOCHOLKE: But she can come any time come anytime
she wants to come and see them? They says they'll be willing to see her
on different grounds, but not here, and that was a decision that they
THE COURT: There's been a big split in your family,
a terrible thing. The whole thing is terrible.
MR. TOCHOLKE: I came home and she was gone. For 30 days I couldn't see
my own children. I tried.
THE COURT: So here's where we are. You're going
to try to get another job and you're going to start making something
a lot closer to $192 a week payment than you have been, which has been
nothing, practically. Okay. We'll see you in March.
THE CLERK: Actually,
we're moving it to March 26th, right?
MR> ANDERSON: Is that okay?
THE CLERK: Okay. March 26th at ten o'clock.